Wednesday, September 12, 2007

"Universal" Questions

I want to first say that all that is to follow maybe completely wrong, but it is what I have been thinking about lately, so here goes:

My wife is discipling some women, and during one of here meetings the question was raised "Why did God create the Universe?". And I hope to explore this question in the following Blog.

First it must be asked, what is meant by Universe. You may think it self explanatory, but in fact, me and Sarah talked for hours about this questions, and we were in fact talking about two completely different things. The Universe may be taken to mean everything that is made. That is to say, all Matter, Energy, Etc. This would include Humans. However, we can also talk about the Universe as everything that is not Human. I make this distinction because as a Christian, I believe that humans are not just matter and energy, but also Spirit. Now since this spirit is eternal, and the Universe is not, I believe that it is a fair distinction to make. The Universe then, becomes everything that is transitory. This doesn't include God, angles, demons, and Humans.

SO then the question, "Why did God create the Universe?" is really two questions. Why did God create everything but Humans, and why did God create humans. Let us answer the first question. Why did God create the Universe, taking Universe to mean everything but humans.

I would say that God created everything in the Universe for humans. Now I know that this sounds very human centric, so we need to back up for a little. What are all the possibilities for the creation of the Universe? Either He created it for Himself, for Angels, or for us. I feel these are the only options of answers for this question since these are the only things that are immortal and can appreciate Creation.

I think it is self evident that God did not create the Universe for Angels, since, although Scripture speaks of them entering creation occasionally on divine missions, the Universe is not their primary habitat. They exist out side of it, and enter only occasionally.

So therefore, creation was either for us, or for Him. SO why do I say He did not create the Universe for Himself? That is a little more complicated. First we need to know about God. One of the answers to the question of why He created is to Glorify Himself. And at first glance this seems pretty reasonable, but I tell you it is not. God needs nothing to Glorify Himself. Because God has community within the Trinity, each side is constantly lifting up and glorifying the others. They are in constant relation, giving each other praise, and honor, and love. Now this seems hard to grasp, and I admit I fully don;t understand, but this is the Christian world view. God needs nothing. He is complete in Himself. He lacks nothing. To say that He created the Universe to give Himself glory implies that He is not glorified, or at least not enough apart from the Creation- and this is false. God would receive the same glory with or with out creation, He does not need it.

So that brings me to us. I realize that my last two arguments seem contrite, and at some point I will go further in depth about them, however, they are the Christian beliefs, so I leave them to stand on their own for now.

That being said, there leaves one possibility left. God created the Universe for us! How exiting is that. But this raises further questions, like why would he create all this for us, and the simple answer is that through the Universe God is revealed to us. He created it all to show us who He is. He created the Universe for us so that we would have a home. He created the Universe so that we might Glorify and Worship Him. Now I know I just said that He doesn't need the Universe to glorify Himself, and just a second ago I said that we can Glorify God through His creation. Am I contradicting myself? I think not. I may be playing semantics here, but semantics are sometimes very important. The fact that we can glorify god through His creation is different than Him receiving Glory through his creation. How is it different? Simple. We are the subject, not God.

It is not that He receives more Glory through the Universe, but that we can understand His Glory through creation. For some reason, God made us to need material things to understand. And therefore, without material things, we would be lost. Now maybe we could have been created differently, but that is not the point. The point is that we are what we are, and therefore, we need creation to know God. He interacts with us through this Universe. It is not a matter of God's needs, but rather of ours.

But more than that, we read in Scripture that everything God created was good, and that God then gives Adam the world to look after and work. He gives him authority over creation in allowing Adam to name the animals.

See, because God is good, he wanted to give good gifts to us, i.e. the Universe.

But then the question is why did God create us? Or if we include humans now in Creation, why did God create the Universe? Or even why did God create? As was already stated, God lacks nothing. He needs nothing. Other religions would say that God created the Universe because it is how he is Glorified, or even able to be in relation to things. One thing, be it human or God, even if he has everything, can not have relationships with out an other. Therefore, some monotheistic traditions would say, God needed the Universe to be in relation to something. But this means that God lacked before the creation.

However, a Trinitarian world view could never say this. Because God is manifest in three persons, each unique, but each God, each having all aspects of God with out the other, and in no need, but in relation to the other two. See God the Father is God, he contains in Him God the Son and God the Spirit. That Same can be said of God the Son. They are all fully God, but they are n constant relation to each other. The closest parallel I can draw, and I think it a air one since we were created in God's image and likeness is a Human being. We all have a mind, spirit, and body. In each is contained all that is that person. When you see me, you say that is Nate. But I also have a mind and spirit that are equally me. Now the analogy isn't perfect, but you get the idea.

So God, as I said before doesn't need the Universe, as some would argue. Why then did he create?

I am going out on a limb here, ans this may possibly be heretical, though I don't think it is,
and I am going to say that God created for Creations sake. My basic argument is as follows, of God is good, it follows that all the does is good. God created, therefore creation must be good.
But I would go further than this and say that it was better to create than not to create, because God created. Why was it better to create? Well, as previously stated, it can't be better for God, so who then is it better for? It is better for creation. Let me say that again- it is better
for creation to exist than to not exist. This is the same for the individual. Often people ask would it have been better if I had not been born? The answer to that question is no. It is always better to have existed than to not exist.

This is a hard concept to grasp. How can we even think of ourselves as not existing? I can;t think of a way that we can, but press ahead we must.

Why would it have been better for creation to exist? Because it is through existence that one can come to know God. There is no other way. It is in fact gibberish to speak of something that doesn't exist as knowing anything, or even being known by anything.

SO if we didn't exist we would have no way to know or be known by God. We would not be able to Worship the King of Kings, know the One who formed us in the womb, never be able to revel in His divine light. It is for this reason that I say it must be better to exist than not exist. And God must think this way also, else He, being all light and goodness, would not have created.

I know that this is very metaphysical and theoretical, and even hurts my brain to think about, however, i feel it is worth pondering. It is hard to think of non existence, however it is also necessary.

So that is my rant this week. Hope you enjoyed. Feel free to submit questions, it will help me flush out my arguments as well.

5 comments:

Sara said...

You must be reading CS Lewis.

I think God is glorified in our seeking to understand these mysterious questions. Jonathan Edwards (and many other great Christians) spent a lot of time meditating on Creation. I'm reminded when I read Job how creation reveals God's nature. Good rant.

Jen said...

Some of your words about the trinity seem a bit off, but I'm not sure how. Son and spirit being in God doesn't seem quite right. The concept of the trinity isn't a Biblical principle (meaning, it's not directly said in scripture) but a theological idea, so I think that's why it's so hard to explain.

You might want to read Packer's "knowing god" for more explanation about the trinity. It's been a while since I've read it, but I remember it being very helpful.

Also, about the whole creation and glorification bit, I've seen people use the exact same argumentative stance as yours and come to the conclusion that God created the earth for the supreme glory of himself. So it's interesting to see you come to a different conclusion.

One of the most interesting explanations of this I ever heard was from John Piper. He explains some of it in his book "Desiring God" - but the sermons are much better :-)

Unknown said...

Nate...
I disagree with this:

"So therefore, creation was either for us, or for Him. SO why do I say He did not create the Universe for Himself?"

To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above[1] proclaims his handiwork. (Psalm 19:1)

Creation Declares Gods Glory..it's not for us

The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof,[1] the world and those who dwell therein,
(Psalm 24:1)

The psalms are replete with these types of references... a mere lookup of the phrase "for his glory" would also be helpful I think...

On to Edwards in particular I would refer you to the treatise "The Ends for which God created the world" I might still have the book...:

God created the universe because of the overflow of the community that he had within the trinity. This overflow of community expressed itself in creation.

"God created for creation sake.." Whatever God created for His Sake, for His Glory, for Himself. The world in particular was created so that Gods name could be glorified in all the earth by creation.

Even salvation serves to glorify God.

Read Edwards...

Austin: I think I agree with you, although I would probably say that God is MOST glorified when we actually come to the conclusion that it's all about HIM and NOT about us. To Him be the Glory through Jesus Christ etc etc...

Jen: well said...

Steve said...

From the top...First, you should clarify what you mean by eternal. I'm not sure humans are anymore eternal than the rest of creation. Both we and and the rest of the universe started at some point in time. God never "started" in that way. He goes "back" forever and "forward" forever. We only go "forward".

b. I don't have references off the top of my head, but while God doesn't need the universe to glorify Himself, it is not wrong to say that the universe glorifies Him. It is an expression of His glory and reflects His glory. A good way Jonathan Edwards(via John Piper?) thinks about it is that the creation(us included) is an overflowing of God's glory. He uses the image of a spring. The spring isn't less full because it overflows, but shows how full it truly is. That is a good picture of God's glory, creativity, power, wisdom, etc overflowing in creation(including us). If He did not create the universe, His glory wouldn't be dimished, but it would not be shown as fully(I think I need to rewrite that sentence in the active voice).

3. Again with the references I need, but there are places where the Bible refers to creation(the heavens) as God dwelling place. So in the sense God created a place for Himself to dwell. Earth is His footstool, etc. Like a king builds a huge-ass palace to show how powerful he is, God did the same thing in the universe. And part of what He did is put us here to see it and the enjoy it.

e. So in everything I've said so far up to the last sentence, our creation and the rest of the universe pretty much is the same. But there is alot that is different about us. While all of creation shows God's glory, power, etc, etc we do that in a unique way in all of creation. We have our own glory, power, creativity, etc, that are derivative from God's and that God gave us to uniquely bear His image in creation. We are created to be in relationship, unlike anything else in creation. We were, unlike anything else, created to commune(be in relationship) with God. In some sense, we were created to "join" in that community of the Trinity. You can see these things as making us distinct from the rest of creation(which is true, we are the crowning,most beloved part), but you can also see them as making us an integrated piece of the entire creation reflecting God's glory.

Lastly, I think you set yourself up for confusion by saying that creation(or anything else) has to be for a, b, or c. The answer is that creation is for all of them, it is made for God, for us, and for angels. That fact is just another one of the ways it manifests God's wisdom. I'm ripping of John Piper's whole "God's glory and our good are the same thing", but I'm doing because I think that is an incredibly insightful(and Biblical) way to look at the world.

Anyway, at some point I think I stopped interacting with your post and kind of went off on my own thing, but that's what I got.

Steve said...

From the top...First, you should clarify what you mean by eternal. I'm not sure humans are anymore eternal than the rest of creation. Both we and and the rest of the universe started at some point in time. God never "started" in that way. He goes "back" forever and "forward" forever. We only go "forward", just like the rest of creation. In the end, we die and are resurrected, just like creation as we know it ends and is remade into the new heavens and the new earth. I'm not sure that the bible distinguishes us from the rest of creation by our eternal-ness as much as other religions do.

b. I don't have references off the top of my head, but while God doesn't need the universe to glorify Himself, it is not wrong to say that the universe glorifies Him. It is an expression of His glory and reflects His glory. A good way Jonathan Edwards(via John Piper?) thinks about it is that the creation(us included) is an overflowing of God's glory. He uses the image of a spring. The spring isn't less full because it overflows, but shows how full it truly is. That is a good picture of God's glory, creativity, power, wisdom, etc overflowing in creation(including us). If He did not create the universe, His glory wouldn't be dimished, but it would not be shown as fully(I think I need to rewrite that sentence in the active voice).

3. Again with the references I need, but there are places where the Bible refers to creation(the heavens) as God dwelling place. So in that sense God created a place for Himself to dwell. Earth is His footstool, etc. Like a king builds a huge-ass palace to show how powerful he is, God did the same thing in the universe. And part of what He did is put us here to see it and enjoy it and take care of it. We live in God's house and are supposed to be taking care of it for Him(which we don't because we sin, but we're mostly talking pre-sin here)

e. So in everything I've said so far up to the last sentence, our creation and the rest of the universe pretty much is the same. But there is alot that is different about us. While all of creation shows God's glory, power, etc, etc we do that in a unique way in all of creation. We have our own glory, power, creativity, etc, that are derivative from God's and that God gave us to uniquely bear His image in creation. We are created to be in relationship, unlike anything else in creation. We were, unlike anything else, created to commune(be in relationship) with God. In some sense, we were created to "join" in that community of the Trinity. You can see these things as making us distinct from the rest of creation(which is true, we are the crowning,most beloved part), but you can also see them as making us an integrated piece of the entire creation reflecting God's glory.

Lastly, I think you set yourself up for confusion by saying that creation(or anything else) has to be for a, b, or c. The answer is that creation is for all of them, it is made by God for God(firstly), for us, and for angels. That fact is just another one of the ways it manifests God's wisdom. I'm ripping of John Piper's whole "God's glory and our good are the same thing", but I'm doing because I think that is an incredibly insightful(and Biblical) way to look at the world.

vi. This is out of order, but I also think that creation serves a purpose and is for the angels also, since in observing creation they see God's glory, creativity, power, etc manifested, which allows them to praise Him more fully and with greater understanding of who He is.

Anyway, at some point I think I stopped interacting with your post and kind of went off on my own thing, but that's what I got off the top of my head.